Podcast: ADP’s John Marcantonio on Low-Code Development and HR

Low Code GUI


Mark Feffer: Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. I’m Mark Feffer.

Mark Feffer: This edition of PeopleTech is brought to you by ADP. Its Next Gen HCM is designed for how teams work, and helps you break down silos, improve engagement and performance, and create a culture of connectivity. Learn more at flowofwork.ADP.com.

Mark Feffer: Today, I’m speaking with John Marcantonio, head of platform evangelism and federated development at ADP Next Gen. We’re going to talk about low-code development, where it’s at, and what it could mean  for HR and HR technology.

Mark Feffer: John, thanks for visiting.

Why is it that you, and someone in your position, would care about low-code development?

John Marcantonio: It’s a great question. I really view low code as the next frontier of software development. Actually, earlier in my career and my education, I was a computer scientist and definitely thrust into more traditional software development. Low code is a way to really not only increase efficiency of development, but broaden who can participate in that process and how great new ideas can get more rapidly developed and brought to market.

Podcast: @ADP Next Gen's Head of Platform Evangelism John Marcantonio on low-code development, where it’s at, and what it could mean for #HR and HR technology. #HRTech Click To Tweet

Mark Feffer: How do you define low-code development? What is it?

John Marcantonio: It’s a development methodology, where instead of, again, typing out code line by line, it’s more of a visual representation of the software development process. Instead of text, it’s visual blocks that represent app logic or data elements, things of that nature, where users can string together and create applications for either mobile, web, whatever the target is, within that type of drag-and-drop paradigm.

Mark Feffer: I’ve seen material that talks about it being applied in a lot of places around the organization. But how, in particular, do you think it can be used by HR?

John Marcantonio: I think HR [is in] actually, a rather unique position, as far as low-code development. I think of HR in the environment, just taking a step back, they’re oftentimes viewed as a cost center, obviously critical to the organization as far as managing people and talent. But compared to, let’s say, product development or sales and marketing, which are more revenue-driven, I think that oftentimes HR can sometimes struggle to really take ideas or initiatives they want to take as far as building new applications or integrating with systems or delivering new ways of engaging with the user base, because they’re fighting it out with the rest of the organization for resources or dollars or whatever it is.

John Marcantonio: Looking at low code, I think if we can broaden the base of who can modify or build applications, either as part of an organization or even HR themselves, I think it gives them a lot more control to not only consider these new ways of pushing forward people, operations and the HR function, but putting that control in their hands, really letting them go to town and potentially build up the skills and capabilities to make those ideas realities and continue to iterate without a lot of the overhead that exists in many other functions today.

Mark Feffer: When you think about HR practitioners, these are the people who still often rely on spreadsheets to do things. Do you think that HR practitioners are going to embrace this kind of thing or are companies going to have to nudge them along to adopt it?

John Marcantonio: I think there’s going to be a little bit of both. I think there’s certainly going to be a spectrum of individuals. Let’s say you’re right. Let’s say individuals more comfortable with the spreadsheet and more traditional models may have a little more of a leap, or may not be as comfortable with jumping into this type of technology or tool set. But I think there’s a lot of room, particularly for those up and coming, or maybe individuals more of like a business analyst or a broader background that are coming to HR organizations to embrace this type of flexibility, the ability to create applications or modify those things that can bring value to the organization.

John Marcantonio: I also think, too, it gives some more options to not only the practitioners themselves, but the broader organization, to think about who they can bring on to help augment that type of development. It could be the team. It could be a different class of consultancy or development shops that may not have the same overhead or cost structure, [as those that are doing] more heavy lifting, let’s say CRM or big marketing or rather costly external contractors that have a lot of expertise and knowledge. In a potentially low-code environment, you could have a broader pool of individuals that may not have to be as deep or as technical to execute the same level of value within those systems. I think the options definitely grow.

John Marcantonio: The last point in regards to practitioners, I’d say: I’d like to see a shift, not only in what can be delivered, but I would hope also that it broadens the horizons of HR organizations to think not only in terms of just the regular people operations or HR functions, but if they had the option to extend applications or create applications that can augment or improve existing processes, that becomes more of their day-to-day thought process. If they can make it better, great, then let’s think of those ideas. Let’s curate those. Let’s test them. If they can do that quickly and somewhat easily, the ideas become a virtuous cycle, where it’s like agile development. Let’s put it out there, let’s test it, let’s see what our users say. Let’s improve it and hopefully continue that from there.

Mark Feffer: What do you think the state of play is today? Are HR departments that you know of actually starting to do this? Are they starting to bring some of their tool development in-house with this kind of platform?

John Marcantonio: I think they’re starting to. I think there’s certainly been a lot of interest in even our own Next Gen HCM platform, as far as the possibilities of being able to modify and bring this type of rapid development iteration to market. If you asked me that question six months ago, I’d have one answer. Given the state of the world over the past few quarters with COVID and the rapid changes in work-from-home and different employee policies that have come to light, I think a lot of organizations have realized that the ability to shift rapidly and to provide information that’s very relevant now and really reach out to their employee bases is an incredibly powerful thing.

John Marcantonio: If you look at more traditional development models, if one wanted to go off and build, let’s say, an employee outreach mobile app that talked about work from home and new policies and updates that are going on, I’m sure the dust will settle from COVID by the time the contracts could be wrapped up. If you gave organizations the power to move very quickly and, again, roll that out, make it tailored to them, I think that’s a very compelling opportunity to really move the needle for their organization, help them stay ahead of things. Again, I think that mindset or those questions are starting to pop up more and more. The past few months have really brought it to light in a way that I don’t think many organizations have seen in the past.

Mark Feffer: One of the things that strikes me is the role of the HR practitioner has really been changing the last several years. They’re having to work more with data. They’re having to work more with mobile technology. Actually, all kinds of technology has become integral to what HR does. How does this impact the overall role of HR, the HR practitioner? Is there a real redefinition of the role going on?

John Marcantonio: I think there is. I think looking at the skillsets and, you’re right, what HR practitioners, organizations need to understand or be in tune with is definitely broadening. I think data was the first big step. We’re looking at what’s available in the organization. How do they leverage it to understand their talent base and where they need improvements or how to foster top performers is certainly more data-driven now that it’s available and they can start to rationalize it.

John Marcantonio: But then you take it one step further beyond, let’s say, very traditional, basic HCM systems, there’s certainly a lot more that can be done, can be tailored to the organization and make those practitioners that are more in tune to what are those possibilities or how do you, like you said, leverage things like mobile technologies to really integrate to the workflow.

John Marcantonio: I think it begs of the HR community to really start asking or thinking about those questions a little more deeply and seeing where they can start to improve and differentiate even in their own organizations. Not only for efficiency, but for employee satisfaction, their efficacy, just how they can react and continue to evolve within an ever-changing and increasingly changing landscape.

Mark Feffer: One of the things that strikes me about HR is they’re very concerned about how they’re perceived by people outside of the HR function. If they begin to do more coding on top of understanding data more, do you think other parts of the organization will start to look on HR in a different way?

John Marcantonio: I think they will. I think also it’s a balance, like any other organization. I think, again, a lot of peer groups in most companies—not only HR, again, sales, marketing, other ops, functions—I think it’s a balance on what’s the core value-add versus, like you said, what’s development, for example.

John Marcantonio: Obviously I don’t think any org wants to over-index with an HR team that’s just building software all day, even if it’s done in a low-code environment. But, again, I think it gives them a little more insight and flexibility in how to operate. I think every organization will face this mix in the future of what do they tool up or do in-house, what capabilities or expertise do they want their organization to manage versus just making it easier to bring in resources to augment their staff or to even take on these projects on their own in a way that’s not, again, massive or a big budget lift or involve a lot of overhead that you see in other projects.

John Marcantonio: I think you’re right. That’s going to have a trickle-down effect. Then as practitioners in HR orgs get more savvy, not only in data, but in the underlying technology, what’s available, I think it puts them in a better position. You can understand how does the whole ecosystem come together, how do all the moving parts come together. As individuals are discussing, again, big projects or integrations or building out new initiatives, I think it gives them more, not only perspective, but I think also credibility.

Mark Feffer: It seems like over the last few years, HR has been working pretty hard to develop a good relationship with IT, especially as HR technology becomes more sophisticated and more grounded in the company. How will low-code development, do you think, impact the relationship between IT and HR?

John Marcantonio: I think it’s going to get deeper. I think there’s two sides of the story. On the one hand, I think there’ll be a continued partnership as far as just the nuts and bolts of what IT would need to do to support, let’s say, a low-code environment. There’s user management and security provisioning, and, just like any other system, to ensure that they get up and running and it’s maintained from a, let’s say, network infrastructure perspective. Things of that nature. I think that gives IT something else to get their skillset on, work with, gives HR a little more visibility to how they operate and what’s needed there.

John Marcantonio: The flip side I can see as well, and this is something that all orgs are, I think, going through as they evolve through this process, is the more control or flexibility you give to any team, let’s say HR in this case, in a low-code environment, [the more] they’re building or modifying applications, particularly ones that may integrate with other systems within the company. It begs the questions of where’s the checks and balances and how do we make sure that everything is at a proper quality level and that whatever is being rolled out works consistently? If something goes wrong, who’s the one on the other side of the phone to get that question?

John Marcantonio: I think as much as it’ll be excitement and another area of skillset and onboardings for IT to handle, I think there’s that flip side is just another area of management, if you will, that will need to get sorted out in a very different way. Because, again, a lot of this is not only the development process, but you think about all the operational components. How do these apps get tested? How do they get deployed? Where do they get deployed to? Are there different integration or policy considerations that go along with it? These are things that I think every company is starting to revisit and understand. Does that follow the current book? Is there new rules they have to adhere to? Then they’ll make that call from there. But overall I think there’ll be a tighter relationship as more of this comes in focus.

Mark Feffer: Do you think that HR is positioned to be a first mover with this within the organization? When data started to rise, I think a lot of HR departments found themselves unexpectedly being some of the first users of different types of analytics. I’m wondering if you think the same kind of thing might happen here or do you think they might follow?

John Marcantonio: I think it will depend on the organization, but I think in many cases they do have the opportunity to lead, mostly because many of the orgs in the company, again, for product development or the other operational groups, they have an established process. They have either internal resources they’re leveraging, they have contractor bases, they have a rhythm of what they’re building and maintaining. The machine is up and running, if you will.

John Marcantonio: In HR’s case they’re always, let’s say, potentially fighting for resources or it’s much more difficult to get projects staffed and built out. If this gives them an opportunity to do that, either with their resources or, again, a much more streamlined, external set of resources, again, they take a little more control for themselves. I think that control will start to lead to some experimentation. That experimentation will lead to results that can be evaluated and iterated on.

John Marcantonio: I don’t expect every org is just going to jump in with both feet and say, “Okay, every HR member is now a developer. Go modify everything under the sun.” But I think as these tools become available and the opportunity comes up, I think there’ll be room for experimentation and hopefully, too, I think, these teams will wade into the waters a little bit, saying, “Okay, what if we built this one little widget?”

John Marcantonio: The COVID scenario is a great example. It’s like, “What if we just built a little app that allowed us to talk about work from home policies and link out to what we need? Great. Build it. Push it out. See what happens.” It doesn’t have to be a monumental undertaking, but with relatively low cost and risk, really standalone, isolated applications could be built, give the team some experience and confidence and use that as an test for the next.

John Marcantonio: If we live up to the promise of low code, say citizen developer, relatively low barrier to entry in development, I think it gives the opportunity for those HR teams to jump in potentially ahead of the curve. If all goes well, I can very much see them being the beacon for other teams in the organization to see what was their experience and were they successful and is this something that they may want to pursue or start migrating from other, let’s say, development practices or systems that are established.

Mark Feffer: John, thanks very much.

Mark Feffer: That was John Marcantonio, head of platform evangelism and federated development at ADP Next Gen. 

Mark Feffer: And this has been PeopleTech, from the HCM Technology Report. This edition was sponsored by ADP. Next Gen HCM, designed for how teams work. Learn more at flowofwork.ADP.com.

Mark Feffer: And to keep up with HR technology, visit the HCM Technology Report every day. We’re the most trusted source of news in the HR tech industry. Find us at www-dot-hcm-technology-report-dot-com. I’m Mark Feffer.

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