Podcast: Thriversity’s Brianna Rooney on the Dynamics of Recruiting Today

Recruiting Tech

Our guest today is Brianna Rooney, the CEO of Thriversity and TalentPerch, and founder of several other companies. Brianna says “recruiting is in her DNA,” so guess what we’re going to talk about? Recruiting, recruiting in this economy, the Great Resignation and more, on this edition of PeopleTech.

Transcript

Mark:

Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. I’m Mark Feffer. My guest today is Brianna Rooney, the CEO of Thriversity and TalentPerch, and the founder of several other firms. Brianna says recruiting is in her DNA. So guess what we’re going to talk about? Recruiting, recruiting in this economy, the Great Resignation and more on this edition of PeopleTech. Hey Brianna, it’s nice to see you. So what’s your view of recruiting today? Where’s the business?

Brianna:

Yikes. So really interesting. Recruiting is getting slapped again. Slapped pretty hard. I think all of talent teams are, we’ve seen that in all of the different layoffs. Talent teams are still the ones that are getting laid off first, unfortunately. I feel like after COVID, they would’ve learned a little bit of what happened and the waves that things go through and how powerful your talent team can be. So recruiting right now is difficult. It’s shifting between what it was, this crazy candidate driven market to now companies are having a little more power, but I think it’s still in limbo and there’s a lot of fear throughout. And so I think the recruiters that will survive this wave are going to be the ones that actually have the human approach.

Mark:

So how did COVID impact the business? I mean, was COVID a good thing or a bad thing for recruiting?

Brianna:

I actually think COVID ended up being a great thing for recruiting because it gave us some power back and power I don’t think we had at all, and that it actually put this microscope on hiring in general and who they realized they needed to have them get through. So then of course, recruiters were essentially overpaid and I think we’re now seeing a course correct in the industry. And not just with recruiters, with engineers as well, I recruit engineers.

But all throughout, I think the playing fields were starting to see course corrections and we overhired. And so I think that once they laid everyone off after COVID and realized, oh my gosh, there’s a lot of industries that actually this is good for, then they ferociously tried to get their recruiters back, and then it became this really awful show of what recruiters are good at and aren’t good at. And then it became this disconnect between hiring managers and recruiters. While at the same time, it was really, really, really, really great for recruiting, but they still didn’t put in, I think, what I call the fire safes. And that’s why we’re seeing layoffs again after COVID, COVID. It’s like times two.

Mark:

You mentioned something about recruiters sort of getting control again, control of the business. Can you expand on that a little bit? I mean, what do you mean?

Brianna:

Yeah, so I think that when they laid off all of their recruiters and then all of a sudden they realized, okay, now we actually are hiring back in tech. Now, there was a lot of companies that had a lot of reserves to hire because it was a really, really hard market. And I mean, every candidate had seven, eight offers and then all of a sudden, it dropped and candidates had to kind of take the first offer and then it course correct. And then the talent teams are back, and then now they’re showing, hey, this is how quickly we can hire. This is how much you need me, this is how much the hiring managers need us. See how hard it is? See how hard it’s to navigate, see how hard it is to keep up with candidate experience?

As we saw that candidates are demanding more and more benefits, better experiences, better DEI programs, the recruiters are the ones that put that in place. They’re the ones that know what we’re doing. And I think that’s how we got our power back to show, look, you can’t do this without us. We can talk about all day long that we’re a people first society, that we’re a people first company, but that does start with recruiters. And having that gap in talent, you will always have that gap, I think with companies in general.

And I think that’s how we showed our power. That’s how we showed why our industry is so big and that, I know I’ve heard in my career, I don’t know if you’ve heard, but someone’s actually told me, “A monkey could do my job.” So it’s like a monkey could not do our job. And I think that’s how we got the power back. And it was really exciting to see. It was exciting to see recruiters getting these crazy different packages and stuff. I will say, I don’t know if you were thinking the same thing, but I was like, “Careful guys, you take over market, there will be a course correction.” And sure enough, there was. So I think that we were just kind of excited to know, oh, people actually care about us. Okay, great.

Mark:

Great. On your LinkedIn profile, you say that you want to change the way the world sees recruiting. So my question about that is how and why?

Brianna:

Oh, okay. You just gave me the chills. So I think that a lot of people have always fallen into recruiting as like, “Oh, it’s like a cool sales job and you can make a lot of money doing it. Oh, wow. And actually it has impact on people. That’s cool too.” And so I think a lot of people… And there’s no standards, you don’t have to go through any kind of training, any kind of certifications, licenses, anything. So you can go from starting nowhere and very quickly having to… I think people started to understand that and see that, and companies needed so many of us. And so what was really interesting is that I saw that training was the biggest thing that was lacking. I was always an external recruiter and I went through… I mean, I started recruiting when there were no internal recruiters. So then when internal recruiters started to be hired again, there was no training. And so as an external recruiter, I am, instead of working with the hiring managers, working with the internal recruiters.

And so I think we saw a big time battle, this is quite a few years ago, but a big time battle between internal and external, because we always thought each other was taking the other one’s job. And then we realized, okay, internal recruiters are the external recruiters that couldn’t hack it in contingency life. So again, it was like this battle over jobs for really no reason because there’s room for both of us. And then I just started training people because when I started, no one trained me. Everyone’s just like, “We’re going to figure it out. It’s not that hard. It’s just a numbers game.” It was always just numbers, it’s just a numbers game. And so I just found it to be really valuable to start training people and start teaching people. And that just became a huge passion of mine. And as I see now, what bothers me is the only way to get any kind of certification for recruiting is via HR. And I don’t find HR to be a recruiting function. I think that we’re two completely separate big beast of industries.

Mark:

You’re talking about people thinking that recruiting is just a sales job so they can do it. And I know I talked to a lot of people who feel like they’re just going to move into recruiting because they can do it. And so what do you look for in people who want to get into recruiting but have no experience?

Brianna:

That one’s a hard one. If I had the true answer for that, I’d be very rich. So in general, I think if I would need to dissect it, it has to come first with work ethic, although I think that that’s pretty much around the board, but I think you really get caught if you don’t have a work ethic. You have to be able to move really quickly. So during the interview process, I like to throw out questions that will probably rattle them that they might not even have the answers for, and nor do I care about the answers. I care about how quickly they’re able to think on their feet. Also, what I look for is someone that is able to navigate a rollercoaster. So because there’s a lot of highs and there’s a lot of lows, and I think lots of times, depending on, of course, if you’re internal or external, will depend on how much companies think that if a candidate doesn’t accept an offer, that it’s your fault.

And I think that that’s something that’s really difficult too. And also depends on if the recruiter’s working on commission. So if I’m an external recruiter interviewing, I have to make sure that they’re willing to roll with the punches, and if it’s an internal recruiter, I’m going to make sure that they have the confidence inside them to talk to higher ups. Because what’s interesting about recruiting is that you could be very junior in your career, yet your hiring manager can essentially be a C-suite. That’s very difficult for quite a lot of people because lots of people have imposter syndrome or lots of people just lack the confidence needed to talk to individuals higher up. So there’s a couple of things that I look for.

Mark:

I want to switch gears a little bit. And you’ve been in recruiting how many years?

Brianna:

14 years.

Mark:

Okay. So how has it changed during that period?

Brianna:

Well, I can tell you that I haven’t used job boards in probably about 12 years. I think that’s a huge shift. When I started, there was no LinkedIn Recruiter. That is massive. That’s pretty incredible. And I think we’ve seen a big switch in LinkedIn Recruiter as well. There’s been some pretty amazing features added that makes all of our lives a lot easier. But what’s interesting is our respect still hasn’t changed. I think that we’re starting to build that. And again, after COVID, I think our respect built up a bit, but there’s still not standards. So that, to me, is pretty wild. I’ve seen a lot of AI, now, it’s called Rectec, brought into our field, all the different bots, and I used to be scared of them. I’m not scared of them anymore. There’s a lot of jobs that we have that a bot cannot fill. So yeah, it’s been really interesting to see. And I also think that I’ve seen the change between candidate driven, company driven, and then a nice split. A split, I think, is the best part to see.

Mark:

But that kind of swings back and forth, doesn’t it?

Brianna:

Oh, yeah. That always swings back and forth, but I think it’s been a candidate driven market for quite a long time. And again, I know that COVID happened, and I know that a lot of people were scared and out of jobs and all of those things, but that quickly changed, of course, depending on what industry you were in naturally. But that really changed, and the candidate driven has been, I think, the one that’s had the most amount of years so far.

Mark:

So how about COVID? Did the pandemic impact the business significantly?

Brianna:

Mine, yes, because of fear, but again, I’m in tech, so I think that only lasted for about three months. And then I work with a lot of venture capitalists companies, so if my clients, which a lot of them are, are in series A and series B, they weren’t impacted as much. It was the larger organizations that seemed to be impacted because they already had their funding, they were already building their product, their product still needs to go out. And so we didn’t see a huge hit. I’m telling you right now, I’m seeing the biggest hit that I’ve ever seen.

Mark:

It’s not a complete conversation with someone in talent acquisition if you don’t talk about the Great Resignation. So what are your thoughts about it? And do you think it’ll have a long-term impact or is it just one of these cyclical things?

Brianna:

Well, actually, okay, so I think a couple of different things because I’m also a business owner, so it’s like I hear all of these different talks about why people resign and stuff. Now, luckily, I have been a business person or a business owner that has always put my people first, but almost, maybe it’s too much because then I stop and don’t think about myself enough. But with the Great Resignation, I think that people just kind of woke up and decided, oh, wow, maybe I do want all of these things. Maybe I deserve all of these things.

However, with that said, I think people took it too far. I think I call it diva-esque, but I think that people turned into not understanding what it takes to actually run a business, not understanding the costs that comes behind it. They want all of these bells and whistles, and I get the work-life balance. I think that’s where it needed to not stop. But yes, you need work-life balance. Yes, you shouldn’t have overworked yourself. Yes, you need to be with your kids. Yes, you need to take off the time in order to have your mental health days. I think all of that awareness is super powerful and really needed, but some of these other benefits, they’re too expensive and they’re not sustainable.

And additionally, I think that’s why we are seeing all of these layoffs is because the companies had to keep one upping each other and they had to keep the higher salaries and the high benefits. And I think that that is really, really difficult on companies. So I’m not sure if this is going to come or stay. I think the work-life balance and remote stuff for sure is, but we’re also seeing problems in that as well. And we’re seeing the people whose work ethic isn’t very strong, taking advantage of a lot of their teams and companies. And I still think we need to see course correction there. But I think it’s interesting to see people taking charge of their own careers. I think that needs to happen. And I think the whole, you’re going to stay with one company your entire life has changed a long time ago.

Image: iStock

Mark:

I’m still trying to figure out how all these people are quitting their jobs, not going to another one, and somehow-

Brianna:

I don’t know how they afford it. I don’t know where everyone’s getting the money, and then we’re seeing them and the real estate, and I’m just like, wow, this is just bonkers to me. I don’t know. I don’t see how it’s sustainable.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah, and I agree. I just really genuinely am flummoxed. Let’s talk about technology for a bit. It’s been taking a greater and greater role in recruiting, but is it being used the right way or are the right tools being developed? Are they being applied by recruiters the right way?

Brianna:

I love this. No, I don’t think so. I definitely think there are a couple of really great products out there. I’ve demoed tons and tons and tons. I’ve tried to implement tons and tons. Here’s the thing, is that if a recruiter is liking their one tool, that they’ve gotten tons of results with, the likelihood of them actually switching and adopting a new one is pretty slim, unless it’s absolutely required and there’s an adoption program, which I don’t think exists a lot. Sometimes it’s like, if it’s not broke, why are we fixing it? I think that a lot of these products are being built by people that are not recruiters, that are just shadowing recruiters or see problems in recruiting, but no one decided to bring a recruiter on. And I think that that’s a giant problem because there’s again, lots of tons of bells and whistles on all of these products, and they’re not thinking about that people and hiring is still very much a people job, and that the farther away we get from it, the more problems we have.

I also think that there are some products that are being built that want to completely take out human interaction, that want to put it more on the candidate. Well, guess what? If it’s a candidate driven market, which it tends to be, then they’re not going to go through all those hoops. They just want to be put in front of the line to the hiring managers. And if the hiring manager has to do more work in order to get that person in front of line, then they’re not going to do it either. So I think that we have people building tools that are either not hiring managers or they haven’t done a hiring manager function well, and they’re not recruiters. So I think that is a huge issue. I only personally have seen a couple tools do it right.

Mark:

Brianna, thanks so much for being here and answering my questions.

Brianna:

Yeah, absolutely. Anything. I love this space.

Mark:

My guest today has been Brianna Rooney, the CEO of Thriversity and TalentPerch, and this has been PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. We’re a publication of Recruiting Daily. We’re also a part of Evergreen Podcasts. To see all of their programs, visit www.evergreenpodcasts.com. And to keep up with HR technology, visit the HCM Technology Report every day. We’re the most trusted source of news in the HR tech industry. Find us at www.hcmtechnologyreport.com. I’m Mark Feffer.

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