Transcript
Mark:
Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. I’m Mark Feffer. Joining us today is Martha Bird, the chief business anthropologist at ADP. We’re going to talk about hybrid work, it’s impact on how work gets done, on people, and on managing a workforce under strange circumstances, that and more on this addition of PeopleTech. Martha, it’s great to see you. We’re in this period where people, a lot of people are working from home and they started working from home because of the virus, but it was unanticipated. It happened very quickly. So now we’re more than a year into COVID and I’m wondering how important is it for people to be in the same room with others when they spend most of their time looking at a screen anyway? In other words, is this whole idea of challenges with remote work, is it all overblown?
Martha:
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a really interesting thing. So I imagine, I’m on a Zoom call or a video call and someone three seats down is on the same call. And so you’ve got these people in this office and they’re all sort of on that same call, but they’re, theoretically they’re very remote from one another, even though they’re in the same physical space. And that to me feels like, not the direction of human connection that we really want to foster in an office. I mean, that to me feels very atomistic in a way, right? So you’re going into an office simply to be present to let’s say, for instance, check your emails or be on this call when you could very well do those things from home or from some other third space, not necessarily home.
Martha:
Because I think we are understanding work from home in the context of a pandemic. And I think that will change when hopefully the health concerns are less. But I think there’s ways of thinking about this. And one of the ways that I like to think about this is what are the things that benefit from in person? What are the kinds of experiences that are important for that type of interpersonal relating? And to me that really comes down to a manager understanding what’s the project team’s working on. It doesn’t matter, it’s cross industries. What are the things that are super important to have those like happy circumstances of crossing and cross pollination of ideas. And I think this is particularly true in very large companies where a lot of what you get as inspiration comes from maybe another functional area.
Martha:
And so you might be going down and getting a coffee and you cross paths with someone from an entirely different functional area, but then you start to talk and you understand, oh, they’re working on this and I’m working on this. And then ideas actually start to I think, ferment from there. But I think it’s really where I think it’s important and I think the onus is on managers, obviously it’s also on company policy at a much higher level, but is to really be intentional and find out where are these opportunities for getting together in physical space, in a legacy setting, let’s say. And where are they best done from a remote location? So it’s really about intention and being really thoughtful about what practices is an advantage in person. The other thing I’d add and people have been talking about this, other anthropologists in particular, Simon Roberts has written a book about the kind of embodied knowledge that we get. Embodied knowledge, meaning we learn a lot from our environments. Right.
Martha:
We go into an office and yes, we get to see like, oh, is that person closing their door? Or are they acknowledging with a certain kind of gesture? Or do I feel like I’m being part of a team because someone’s be like, all of these kind of embodied ways of knowing we are at a deficit, I think when we’re doing things remotely. So I think that there’s never a substitute, like long term for in-person interrelationships. The frequency of that I think is up to really understanding what kind of work is being undertaken.
Mark:
Okay. Now, it seems like a lot of people have spent time studying the efficiencies or inefficiencies that go along with working from home. There’s no commute time, there’s lower real estate costs for the company, all of that kind of stuff. But do these efficiencies come at a cost, a personal cost?
Martha:
Yeah. I’ve thought about that myself quite a bit. And there are two things that I’d suggest there is yes, there are those sort of, the things that people are focusing on in terms of efficiency and in terms of convenience and work life balance. But one of the things that I think it’s important to consider is that there are people who live by themselves or they live in a shared [inaudible 00:05:40] and they may feel isolated, they may feel lonely. They may feel disconnected. Now that’s a cost. That’s a huge personal cost. I think loneliness is a huge personal cost, feeling alienated and not part of something. And then I think the other part of that is what we hear a lot about too, which is burnout, right? If you’re in your own place and you’re not commuting, there’s somehow this, we’re going to do something else instead and that’s going to be work.
Martha:
And so people are ending up doing way too much work and also balancing other personal responsibilities that they have. So to me, those personal costs are pretty high. We’re not efficiency machines. That somehow gets framed in a way around these conversations, like, oh, efficiencies up. And yes, but there are emotional, psycho emotional things that I think are suffering too. And also cultural things, just how we get cues about what the culture of the company we work for are. And often times that is in person or through some really highly intentional activities.
Mark:
So what does that do to the workforce? I mean, what are some of the end results that employers might see from their workforce if they’re dealing with this?
Martha:
Well, I mean, I think a lot of it would come down to… Some of the things they don’t see, which I think is an issue, maybe even more so. Like sort of this idea about loneliness and disconnection. So if someone can be working remotely and they [inaudible 00:07:15] then, okay, there’s no issue there. We’re not going to talk about it. But if that person is also feeling like a lack of a connection, a lack of meaning, a lack of purposefulness, that’s not a good thing. And so that’s where I think, again, the manager, I mean, I talk a lot about the manager, but the manager of yesterday is not the manager of now and going forward.
Martha:
Because there has to be a far greater degree of I think interpersonal intelligence or emotional IQ than there probably was in the past. So in that instance, there is this idea to check in and see how people are doing on an individual basis and do that in a formalized ways. It’s not like just, I happen to catch up with you or send you an invite for a meeting, but actually have a regular cadence where a regular cadence with an agenda that’s about, I want to see what’s going on with you and how can I help you? So I think there’s another layer here that’s unfolding, not necessarily by everybody’s choice because not everybody is meant to be or comfortable, frankly, as being in that role as a sort of a coach or a mentor, more than sort of a leader or a boss let’s say.
Martha:
And a boss is much more able, at least traditionally, more able to do that kind of role when people are in an office when they can keep tabs on them, when it’s sort of like, oh, have you done X, Y, and Z? And the person say, yes, I’ve done it. As opposed to what are you working on? How’s that working for you? What can I do to help you? I think they’re very different, in some instances, very subtle, but in other instances, particularly if you’re a person with a personality that isn’t inclined toward that more mentoring persona, I think there’s a learning curve there that I think is very steep for a good many people, but I think people are trying.
Mark:
Well, and that leads into my next question, which is how can people, I’m thinking managers really, but how can managers, when they spend most of their time working remotely, how do they build relationships? I mean, how do they sort of overcome the space?
Martha:
Yeah. I mean, I think now, because again, we’re in a unique moment with the pandemic and sort of forced sort of separation. That’s one thing, but I think once this starts to lift and the ways of working become more normalized, then I think it’s going to be an interesting conversation about, well, first it’s about what your company culture is and what you hope to achieve. Because maybe your company culture is I don’t want to build a relationship with my employees and I want them just to do their thing. And so that’s an easy thing to do, but I don’t think that’s the case in most companies. And I’ve heard a very successful team get togethers outside home or outside of the office or the legacy office in a third space or something.
Martha:
And the frequency can depend on your needs. But I mean, I’ve seen very successful building of relationships based on a couple times a year getting together. Maybe you want to do it once a month. But yes, you do have to have that togetherness. The other thing too, Mark, that I thought was really interesting that I read about recently and I really loved it for like a building sort of activity or sort of to get to know people. I’ve personally done this one time and I’ll mention too. The one that I instigated, which was pre pandemic was for the team to post pictures of themselves when they were six years old. And to then write, what were you thinking about when you were six years old and what would you tell yourself now? And that was great because the team is multi-generational, global.
Martha:
And so you learn a lot of things that you wouldn’t otherwise have known, like one of the teammates from Bella Russia, his photo was in black and white. Now most of the other photos on team board were in color. And so I asked him, I’m like, what’s up with the black and white? And he said, at the time, it’s during Soviet times, having a color photo was very, very difficult. It wasn’t the standard practice, even though he wasn’t very old. That was a nice piece of cultural learning that I think we all got to benefit from.
Martha:
The other exercise that I really like, recently discovered was about going around when you have a team, let’s say a team meeting and you say, okay, what in your office can you share with us that like represents your day to day? And so someone will say, oh, here’s a picture of my dog, or here is my notebook I’ve been working on, or here’s a statue that I look at every once in a while. The leader as well as the team members all kind of share these things. And I think it’s a way of kind of scratching the veneer of this box that we find ourselves in and sort of opening it up to a context. And I think anything that you can do to create sort of more humane context I think is great. At the same time, being sensitive to people who are probably not as comfortable, maybe sharing those things. And that’s something that a manager would want to know sort of in advance.
Mark:
Now you touched on this, but I want to ask you a specific question, which is how much of this is generational? Gen Z supposedly prefers electronic communication. So does this mean the workplace is just catching up with gen Z?
Martha:
Yeah. I mean, it’s so interesting because I think about someone like my niece who’s 19, and I reflect back on the things that I’ve observed about… A tremendous amount of time on YouTube doing some DIY stuff, learning about stuff on YouTube, whatever happens to be of interest, collaborating with friends on things like Microsoft Teams or Google. Looking at TikTok video, contributing content to the threads in those spaces. All of those sorts of like, it’s like this self curation, right? It’s this ability to have this independent really quick, really scanning and really getting stuff done, like high productivity across multiple platforms, social platforms and typically on a mobile phone.
Martha:
So you think, okay, how does that relate to the office today? Well, one of the things that I’m thinking about that makes me laugh is imagine my niece going into work and she’s going into her space and there’s an office phone and the cord, the squiggly cord next to it. It would not be surprising to me if she’s like, well, what is that squiggly cord thing? It’s like the thing to the handset, right? So imagine that just seems like extremely foreign, like an alien object, and then don’t even go there with a fax machine because that’s like a whole other thing. So I think that the direction of the digitization of the workplace is going is more in alignment with those experiences of somebody who only knows mobile and really has grown up on social media.
Martha:
There’s still a long way to go. I think there’s lots of gaps. So for instance, there would be times I think would be conflict. For instance, with someone in gen Z who’s used to getting stuff done fairly rapidly and with a high degree of proficiency across digital devices, platforms and things, if they got an email, which I don’t even know if my niece has probably written eight emails in her entire life. So she’s used to SMS, group chats and things.
Martha:
So I think there’s still a gap. I think there’s still going to be, there may be some frustration about processes that are in place in some of these companies, in many companies, frankly, about how things are done. Because I think that if someone in gen Z is probably used to this, sort of this content creation, huge. Right. They’ve been creating content since they picked up a mobile phone. The ability to have this sort of self-reliance and DIY sort of learning stuff as they go. And I think definitely an ability to work hard. So I don’t think that’s the issue, but I think that there are different cultural mindsets I think, or worldviews based on somebody who let say is 20 [inaudible 00:16:51] who’s 45 years old. And I think that a lot of this comes down to this factor of social media and mobile phones. And I think that’s the domain of gen Z and that’s what they know.
Martha:
So for me in that situation, I’ve reflected on this quite a bit, it’s really about I think, thinking really deeply about how to set up sort of two way mentoring so that I could advantage from somebody who is much younger and had the life experiences that they do and some of the ideas that they have. Because one of the things about gen Z that I understand from my own research is that despite the fact that we talk about their interest in communicating digitally, many people in that cohort group have said that they prefer to actually have in-person conversations when it comes to work. So they would have an expectation of their manager to meet with them once a week, maybe a couple times a month, but basically it’s an expectation there. And so I think there’s some things that we’re probably all learning about one another as we come together in these workplaces, which are really highly multi-generational.
Martha:
But yeah, I think this sort of, putting people together who have had different experiences. And so I can imagine a gen Z person saying, Hey, why do we do it this way? I think we should do it like this, because this is really efficient. I’m messing around with the slow boat that we’re on. And then somebody who may have worked at the company longer might say, well, let me explain to you where that came from. Like why it is that we do this thing. And that idea may make sense, may not make sense, but in any event there’s a conversation’s being had. So there’s some like sort of wisdom from somebody who’s been there longer and perhaps from a different generation, that would make sense.
Martha:
And then there’s this sort of also, this wisdom coming from somebody who has different experiences with technology, different understandings of how one can get things done. And so that’s how change happens. That’s how technology evolves. That’s how practices evolve. As practices evolve, technology evolves, but you need the friction, the creative friction that happens between respectful parties who are learning about each other. And I think a company that can foster those sorts of dynamics is going to benefit both from the wisdom of those who are in an older generations and those coming up.
Mark:
Now let’s say we get fully back to work, I should say, back to the workplace late this year, early next year. Broadly speaking, how will the interpersonal relationships in the office have changed?
Martha:
Well, I think it depends on a number of factors. So first if you’ve never been in the office and now you’re going in, if you were hired during the lockdown, then that’s going to be a whole other experience for you. Because you’re meeting people that you’ve only ever seen in a little box. I think in my experience, when I have actually gone into the office and seen people, it’s sort of like, you sort of step back and it’s like, oh, are you actually real? Or are you still like this digital, like Phantom that I saw on Zoom?
Martha:
So I think that everyone will have their own reactions, but I do think that we need to be particularly mindful of the people who have not been in the office yet, who have not met the team in person, who haven’t had those cues and they really don’t have the, they may have a sense of the culture and if a company’s doing really like doubling down on this, they would’ve created a handbook that really outlines what the company’s values are, that talks about how they put those values into practice. And least in that case, that person will have a little bit more background, but someone just coming in, who’s never been there and only seen people new digitally, I think that’s going to be, yeah, it’s like your first day in the office. It can be a little scary.
Mark:
Well, Martha, thanks so much for taking the time this afternoon. It was great to talk with you again.
Martha:
I love talking to you Mark. I really appreciate it. We’ll see how this thing unfolds.
Mark:
Absolutely. My guest today has been Martha Bird, the chief business anthropologist at ADP. And this has been PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. We’re a publication of Recruiting Daily. We’re also a part of Evergreen Podcasts. To see all of their programs visit www.evergreenpodcasts.com. And to keep up with HR technology, visit the HCM Technology Report every day. We’re the most trusted source of news in the HR tech industry. Find us at www.hcmtechnologyreport.com. I’m Mark Feffer.
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