Announcer:
Welcome to PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. We are recording from HR Tech in Vegas, brought to you by our friends and partners at Fuel 50. Here’s your host, Mark Feffer.
Mark Feffer:
This is PeopleTech, the podcast of the HCM Technology Report. I’m Mark Feffer and we’re recording today from the exposition floor of the HR Technology Exposition and Conference. And I’m here today with Jackye Clayton. Jackie, welcome.
Jackye Clayton:
Hi.
Mark Feffer:
And tell us about you.
Jackye Clayton:
Well, my name’s Jackye Clayton. I use she/her pronouns. I live in Waco, Texas, but I work for companies in Seattle a lot. I currently am the Vice President of Talent Acquisition and Diversity, Equity and Inclusion for Textio, and I’m very happy to be here.
Mark Feffer:
Thank you. So, this is the first HCM HR tech show in two or three years.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
So as you’re walking around the expo floor, what are you seeing that really is making you happy?
Jackye Clayton:
A lot of the employee engagement tools and the wellness and choices I’m seeing has been a really different, and I’m glad to see that people are looking at that more serious. I think that there is budget behind it, but then it’s also good to know as we try to create inclusive environments, how can we meet all the people where they are? And so for the first time, we’re seeing customizable solutions instead of a blanket approach. And so that’s been standing out. Also, I’ve been excited, I know there hasn’t been a full company who gets all of the things, but we are seeing people pay attention to praise and celebrate people’s differences that we haven’t seen in the past either as a part of the software, meaning they are recognizing that we need to make inclusive tools. They don’t necessarily help an organization create or attract people from diverse communities, but once they are there, recognizing everyone as individuals is something that we’re seeing built in tools, which is nice.
Mark Feffer:
All right, jump back for a minute to engagement.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
That’s what you just said? I see all these engagement tools or tools that position themselves as engagement tools and shouldn’t engagement just be built in to the tech experience? Why do we need separate engagement?
Jackye Clayton:
Right. Good question. I think it’s because people get so hyper focused on their deliverables that sometimes they literally forget that there’s people doing this job and get so solidly focused that, like Microsoft Viva, I laugh because I love that tool and it tells me how many emails that I had, I didn’t rest or I didn’t read or I didn’t do these things. And it’s because I’m so focused on, again, my remit is one thing. And so having that tool in the back, it’s a friendly reminder. And I think we stopped looking a while back at people as people in organizations. And I think it’s one thing that came out of the last two years, the Covid era, where we’re recognized we really have to make sure that we’re taking care of employees and what we’re seeing as well with people leaving organizations looking for something that they can be their authentic self. And so people are getting it wrong. And so I think it’s the effort of we don’t want to mess this up so we’ll buy a tool that will help make sure that we didn’t forget.
Mark Feffer:
Does the technology… There’s a funny balance I think vendors have to strike between the human aspect of HR and the technology that serves HR.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
Can you talk about that a little bit? I’m interested to know where you view the line and how you think everybody’s doing.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes. So I feel like it’s changing back. Before when we were looking at human resources, there’s really focused on protecting the company and compliance. And so we have to recognize, I think we have to recognize that people are human. It’s been a challenge also because of how we use our phones and apps and we use all this technology that people almost don’t know how to do it if there’s not an app for it, right?
Mark Feffer:
Right.
Jackye Clayton:
And so it’s an expectation. The technology is so good now, can do so many different types of things that I feel like there… I feel I’ve always felt like technology can make us more human. I’m one of those, some people feel the opposite that it brings us further apart. But I feel like we have such knowledge and education now and it’s so accessible that people have changed their expectation of tools.
Mark Feffer:
Right.
Jackye Clayton:
Before there used to be some wonder, isn’t it amazing that I can clock into work with my phone, but then they’re like, Oh, I want to go on vacation or what do I do about this? Or what do I do about that? They’re looking at an app, they Google it, people Google or use a search engine for everything. And so the expectation is that there is a technology component and there are some things I don’t want to talk about with HR.
I want to be able to do it on my own, like a life choice. I don’t want to have to go to a person and tell them everything that’s happening in the life. If I can do it an app and the app can do those things, it helps us allow people to share what they want to share. I don’t know if that answers all of your question, but it feels like it is an expectation that because we use so much tech that there will be tech to solve these different situations that used to be a human interaction. I think people look for it.
Mark Feffer:
Well, it’s ironic because you see a lot of people saying that advanced technology is allowing employers to be more personal.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
And I sort of get that on the one hand, but I’m always trying to figure that out on the other hand,
Jackye Clayton:
It’s hard. Because then there’s the moment where it’s like, where is everybody? Where’d everybody go? It’s interesting because we’re looking for tools to help fix situations that a lack of tools didn’t create, right? Us being able to have a conversation and talk about who you are as a person, we can just do that without tools. But then it’s like people forget, they’ve forgotten how to do those things. How are we interacting? We want to also make sure that we are being productive in these conversations within the Human Resources space. And so I like that. Something else that I’ve seen are these nudges, software that have little nudges to make sure, are you being nice? Are you being fair? Are you using the right words? Are you being kind? There’s a person on the other end of that. So I think that it is kind of interesting. Like I said, most of us look at our phones first.
Mark Feffer:
Yeah. You talk about nudges and that brings to mind the whole idea of learning in the frame of work or learning in the flow of work.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
Which seems pretty smart to me, actually. Just like nudges.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
What’s your opinions? Is that a trend that has legs and is going to stick?
Jackye Clayton:
I think so, because one of the things that’s really difficult, and we’re seeing it with learning and development tools as well, is: are we being consistent? Is the messaging being very clear and is this something that we can do with our culture internally to scale? And I think that’s, again, why we’re seeing some of these nudges to make sure that we have the same environment throughout the full organization and that the culture and everything, we’re staying true to those things.
And so I think it’s a smart way to scale, to make sure, because we can’t be at all places and life does happen. So we can have a training. I don’t know if you’re paying attention, especially now in the world of remote work, it doesn’t mean I feel like people are more productive at work. However, your internet goes out or something happens and you’re doing an online training, then you’ve missed it. So it’s like, this is what we talked about. Remember this is a deal, remember who we are. And I think especially because people are working at home and you don’t have regular, so many people are not going back to the office. So the culture is you at home making sure that those things are happening instead of being able to see it in an office.
Mark Feffer:
Wanted to shift ground shift gears.
Jackye Clayton:
Sure.
Mark Feffer:
Talk about skills, which –
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
Have become hugely important it seems in a fairly short amount of time. What is your read when you hear about skills and challenges with skills, what do you think?
Jackye Clayton:
I feel like it goes back to kind of the culture conversation, because you can have the skill, but it’s not right for us. People stop saying culture fit, but no, there is an actual place where you have to fit. And so what’s difficult with skills is it doesn’t allow you to put what you really mean. I’m looking at how they’re doing these skills and they say they want these skills, but a lot of times they’re not addressing how are you utilizing these skills, what kind of impact is going to happen? And by the time you find out it can be too late, right? You usually find when somebody left where your gap or gaps are. And I also think I can understand, especially from an HR perspective, you really have to make sure it’s an alignment that the skills you’re looking for are not just for the job, that they are in alignment with the business goals.
And so that’s what I’m wondering, how it’s going to play out. Of looking at all of these various skills to be better. I feel like it’s going to be one of those things where it’s like you look at a skill list and they’re like, Oh yeah, yeah, they should really have that. And you’re like, Wait, no, we don’t need that. I don’t need to know how to swim to work here. And you’re like, Oh, well it was on the list. We thought it was cool. And I just know that there are going to be skills on there.
Oh, like me, you should understand data science. No, I don’t need to understand data science. I love it when people say, do you know pivot tables and Excel? And I’m like, Yeah, I click the Analyze Data and it says, here’s a pivot table, right? I’m like, Oh no. Does that mean I have the skill? No. It doesn’t say you need to be able to build graphs. Okay, I can do that. Oh well, do you know pivot tables? Oh, so now I’m not qualified for the job? Let’s talk about what we really need. I think people should be specific. I understand the skills, but I feel like there needs to be at least somewhere where it’s going to say, these are the jobs, this is going to happen, this is how it’s going to work. This is where you’re going to be able to use these skills. And that they don’t just make things up. What is – Shenanigans.
Mark Feffer:
Yeah, I know. We’re very serious here.
Jackye Clayton:
Very serious. Yes, yes.
Mark Feffer:
There’s the saying of if you need skills, you either build them, buy them, or borrow them.
Jackye Clayton:
Yes.
Mark Feffer:
Yeah. It seems really smart to me. But, it also seems like an incredible challenge to the employer to sort of orchestrate this mix.
Jackye Clayton:
Right?
Mark Feffer:
Can you talk about that?
Jackye Clayton:
Yes. One of the things that we started doing at Textio was we’re working to have a Textio Toastmasters. I mean, we’re a communications company, right? Ultimately, we’re looking at inclusive communications and we’re like, that’s the strongest skill that we think that people should have. And I feel like that’s the challenge is making sure, again, I just want to find out what do we really need and how is it going to be used?
Mark Feffer:
Does technology have a role to play there in sorting that all out?
Jackye Clayton:
It’s going to be really scary. Okay, here’s the hot take. Here’s the hot take. They’re going to run the skill stuff and they’re going to find out nobody at the company is qualified to work there. Watch, just watch. It’s a hot take. You’ve heard it here first, friends.
Mark Feffer:
Okay. Absolutely.
Jackye Clayton:
You’re going to find out what everybody’s already know, right? This person is a complete idiot. And now we have proof, right? Because he doesn’t have any of these skills. That’s my favorite part. Oh, well, to work here, you should be able to do this, this, and this and this. We’ve never done that, right? That’s why it’s just say what you mean. The biggest skill that you need is to be able to be flexible, be able to pivot, and be able to be in a place where you’re not afraid to make a mistake and be able to communicate and feel safe enough to say, I don’t know what this is.
Mark Feffer:
Which are all human –
Jackye Clayton:
Right.
Mark Feffer:
Aspects [inaudible]
Jackye Clayton:
That’s why I’m like, Oh, come on. And you know who’s going to build these two? The people that it goes back and looking in the organization on the culture and how it works internally of knowing what’s the bias with these skills? Who makes the determination? Does it come straight from the job description or from your performance feedback on what skills are necessary in order to make a successful company? There’s not going to be a silver bullet because a lot of times in my career, I realize public speaking is the number one skill that’s gotten me able to have the jobs that I’ve had, move up in my career. And I kind of fell into them. And if somebody said, So I’ve gotten the opportunity and chances, but I probably wasn’t qualified for any job that I’ve ever had at the beginning. I like to learn how to fix the plane while we’re flying, right?
To check out what’s that button do? What’s that do? But, like I said, you heard it here first. I think it’s going to be dangerous. They’re going to find bias behind it. People that decided what this tools are or the people that don’t necessarily… It’s not scalable for everyone else. And you see that a lot. In sales, the number one sales person is usually the person who gets there an hour early, stays at least an hour late, stays on the phone all day, eats lunch at their desk, right? So, what skill are you looking for? What’s the skill in order to be successful there? If it is, oh, you have to overwork yourself. No, that’s not – well, how are you rating what’s necessary in order to be successful? And I also find that when you do a list like that, it’s aspirational and not what you actually need.
Mark Feffer:
Jackie, thanks so much for talking to me.
Jackye Clayton:
You’re welcome.
Announcer:
You’ve been listening to PeopleTech of the HCM Technology Report. This HR tech series is graciously proud to you by our partners at Fuel 50. For all other HR sourcing and recruiting news, check out HCMTechnologyReport.com.
